The parking lot was deserted by this time of night. Most of the street lights had been knocked out ages ago, leaving only a small halo of illuminated black pavement adorning the side of the tired shops which had long outlived their purpose. That private corner was far enough away from prying eyes that anyone who happened to be driving by would keep going – not that anyone ever went out after ten p.m. in our sleepy suburban town anyway. The smell of far-off fires and screeching rubber tires filled the air. It was dark, quiet, and hidden. The perfect place for trouble. To test our teenage machismo. For a fight.
"When I was armed myself, I understood how it could become an extension of my being, and how the experience of that munition was as much my opponent’s as my own. At that moment, how could I believe in a dualistic world?"
I really enjoyed this piece Latham and I feel as though your lens on this has given me a lot of intersting things to think about. I am not trained at fighting at all (minus half a karate class when I was little) but I do appreciate the balance of having the ability to fight and knowing when to tap into it or not. I love the scenes you painted here, I feel like I was at all three locations in your story.
Wow Latham, this is really getting to the heart of the matter re getting real as men. And this section really speaks to me as a father, who is culpable of the avoidance of conflict you describe as the default in our culture. "Instead of finding pride in self-discipline, confidence in perspective, and the joy of being needed, young boys are ashamed of the impulses within themselves. They should be learning perspective, what’s worth fighting for, and how to harden themselves as an instrument for a worthy cause. But those teachings are taboo. I needed the military to learn to fight for my soul. I’m one of the lucky ones; most people are never reborn."
I agree. I was raised to abhor violence. Then I read "The Wonder of Boys". I think it saved my sons many (extra) hours of therapy. Perspective is a really valuable addition to this toolkit.
Thank you Rick. This one kind of just came out of me in response to a book I had been reading. I'm glad it resonated. I wouldn't say I have answered all of this for myself, but I'm trying to figure it out as I go.
As always, I really appreciate your support as I work out what I think.
In social work school they taught us that violence is the language of the oppressed. Muhammad (s) was a warrior on the field, merciful and kind . When we was oppressed by the powerful elite, he left his home and when they followed him he fought back with an army. I enjoyed the piece in helping me rethink violence and when it’s necessary
Thank you Sadia. I had never thought about it from a social work perspective, but that makes a lot of sense. Violence is a last resort when you feel like everything else is absurd. But, as you read, my own mental model is evolving for how I think about it.
Jul 21, 2023·edited Jul 24, 2023Liked by Latham Turner
Brilliant as always, Latham. Your consideration of the spiritual, ethical dimensions of violence highlights just how debased it is in our culture. It also encourages me to reevaluate my blanket aversion to violence. It’s yet another facet of the human experience; why wouldn’t we want to integrate it on a soul level? As I appreciated what I was reading for your excellent rendering of a perspective so different from my own, I thought of that old parable of the blind men and the elephant. Each of us here on Substack is describing one part of the elephant. The overall experience of reading and interacting gives a more complete picture. Thank you.
This is such a beautiful point Julie. We're all trying to help each other be as human as possible, using the tool of words. I often wonder if it's enough. But with wonderful friends and engaging communities, it's more than I could have ever hoped for. Thank you for sharing.
Epic piece, Latham!! Probably a taboo side subject, but my husband play fights with me all the time! It’s always tame enough (and consensual), but he’s a former pro hockey player who hit/fought a lot, so after reading this (and while NOT what you were writing about per se), I get it. It’s not about violence. It’s a release. It’s bonding. It’s like heavy, wordless banter. A different style of conversation and connection. And with all my yoga, I’m pretty strong, so I can definitely play my role as a worthy opponent! Thank you for this new perspective on a thread in my own life!
E.L. I love that you and your husband have that. My wife also takes BJJ, and every day she comes home and practically bursts with "do you want to see what I learned today?" Our connection has always had a physical component, but it's become fun to practice grappling with each other. I imagine you and your husband know and respect each other's limits in a way most people can never appreciate.
I would love to read more about how you guys have come to your own. That's a rare window into a relationship.
I love how you approach a taboo like violence and approach it with nuance and yet clarity. It rekindles the feeling that there are some things worth fighting for
Thank you Chao. I definitely agree there are some things worth fighting for, and many not worth fighting for. I think many of us are still figuring out what those lines are.
That first sparring session you described was identical to my own first time experience in the ring. The dance, the first jarring blow, from a friend, no less. And then all skills thrown out the window, replaced by a flurry of punches, and having to be dragged away by a coach. We laughed about it later, as he washed out the blood from his mouth. But things were never quite the same between us again. We were meant to be learning. He tried to take my head off. All bets were off after that. Pride can be a killer. Loved the stack. 👏✍️
A unique perspective if I’ve ever seen one. Will remember this, thanks Latham. Two thoughts. 1. Used to play a fair bit of rugby when I was younger. 80 minutes of controlled violence when you enter the 4 lines. And then beers with your opponents afterwards. Crazy to some, but a great sport imo. 2. This quote from Blood Meridian: “It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way.”
1. I didn't know you used to play Rugby. Some of my friends from the Naval Academy played Rugby and loved it. I never learned, but sometimes wish I had. We used to have one intramural sport that was like rugby meets kickball. They used to brag that it was only played at the Naval Academy and the NY State Penitentiary. That was a similar experience I'd imagine. I'd love to hear more about your time playing.
2. I'm about halfway through Blood Meridian. It's fascinating to read. Not at all what I was expecting and yet I love it. That's such a powerful quote. Thank you for sharing.
"When I was armed myself, I understood how it could become an extension of my being, and how the experience of that munition was as much my opponent’s as my own. At that moment, how could I believe in a dualistic world?"
That bit just totally knocked my socks off.
Thank you Alaina. I'm grateful you liked it.
I really enjoyed this piece Latham and I feel as though your lens on this has given me a lot of intersting things to think about. I am not trained at fighting at all (minus half a karate class when I was little) but I do appreciate the balance of having the ability to fight and knowing when to tap into it or not. I love the scenes you painted here, I feel like I was at all three locations in your story.
rings like a bell in round 2 for us city slickers
Thank you Diane. It was fun to write
Wow Latham, this is really getting to the heart of the matter re getting real as men. And this section really speaks to me as a father, who is culpable of the avoidance of conflict you describe as the default in our culture. "Instead of finding pride in self-discipline, confidence in perspective, and the joy of being needed, young boys are ashamed of the impulses within themselves. They should be learning perspective, what’s worth fighting for, and how to harden themselves as an instrument for a worthy cause. But those teachings are taboo. I needed the military to learn to fight for my soul. I’m one of the lucky ones; most people are never reborn."
I agree. I was raised to abhor violence. Then I read "The Wonder of Boys". I think it saved my sons many (extra) hours of therapy. Perspective is a really valuable addition to this toolkit.
Oh. Interesting. I'll have to check out "The Wonder of Boys"
Thank you Rick. This one kind of just came out of me in response to a book I had been reading. I'm glad it resonated. I wouldn't say I have answered all of this for myself, but I'm trying to figure it out as I go.
As always, I really appreciate your support as I work out what I think.
In social work school they taught us that violence is the language of the oppressed. Muhammad (s) was a warrior on the field, merciful and kind . When we was oppressed by the powerful elite, he left his home and when they followed him he fought back with an army. I enjoyed the piece in helping me rethink violence and when it’s necessary
Thank you Sadia. I had never thought about it from a social work perspective, but that makes a lot of sense. Violence is a last resort when you feel like everything else is absurd. But, as you read, my own mental model is evolving for how I think about it.
Brilliant as always, Latham. Your consideration of the spiritual, ethical dimensions of violence highlights just how debased it is in our culture. It also encourages me to reevaluate my blanket aversion to violence. It’s yet another facet of the human experience; why wouldn’t we want to integrate it on a soul level? As I appreciated what I was reading for your excellent rendering of a perspective so different from my own, I thought of that old parable of the blind men and the elephant. Each of us here on Substack is describing one part of the elephant. The overall experience of reading and interacting gives a more complete picture. Thank you.
This is such a beautiful point Julie. We're all trying to help each other be as human as possible, using the tool of words. I often wonder if it's enough. But with wonderful friends and engaging communities, it's more than I could have ever hoped for. Thank you for sharing.
Epic piece, Latham!! Probably a taboo side subject, but my husband play fights with me all the time! It’s always tame enough (and consensual), but he’s a former pro hockey player who hit/fought a lot, so after reading this (and while NOT what you were writing about per se), I get it. It’s not about violence. It’s a release. It’s bonding. It’s like heavy, wordless banter. A different style of conversation and connection. And with all my yoga, I’m pretty strong, so I can definitely play my role as a worthy opponent! Thank you for this new perspective on a thread in my own life!
E.L. I love that you and your husband have that. My wife also takes BJJ, and every day she comes home and practically bursts with "do you want to see what I learned today?" Our connection has always had a physical component, but it's become fun to practice grappling with each other. I imagine you and your husband know and respect each other's limits in a way most people can never appreciate.
I would love to read more about how you guys have come to your own. That's a rare window into a relationship.
I love how you approach a taboo like violence and approach it with nuance and yet clarity. It rekindles the feeling that there are some things worth fighting for
Thank you Chao. I definitely agree there are some things worth fighting for, and many not worth fighting for. I think many of us are still figuring out what those lines are.
THIS HITS HARD, brother!
Thank you Bowen. It ended up being really powerful to write as well.
That first sparring session you described was identical to my own first time experience in the ring. The dance, the first jarring blow, from a friend, no less. And then all skills thrown out the window, replaced by a flurry of punches, and having to be dragged away by a coach. We laughed about it later, as he washed out the blood from his mouth. But things were never quite the same between us again. We were meant to be learning. He tried to take my head off. All bets were off after that. Pride can be a killer. Loved the stack. 👏✍️
Thank you Kevin. I'm sad to hear that things were never quite the same. Pride can be a total killer. Well said.
I'm grateful you're here.
A unique perspective if I’ve ever seen one. Will remember this, thanks Latham. Two thoughts. 1. Used to play a fair bit of rugby when I was younger. 80 minutes of controlled violence when you enter the 4 lines. And then beers with your opponents afterwards. Crazy to some, but a great sport imo. 2. This quote from Blood Meridian: “It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way.”
Thank you John.
1. I didn't know you used to play Rugby. Some of my friends from the Naval Academy played Rugby and loved it. I never learned, but sometimes wish I had. We used to have one intramural sport that was like rugby meets kickball. They used to brag that it was only played at the Naval Academy and the NY State Penitentiary. That was a similar experience I'd imagine. I'd love to hear more about your time playing.
2. I'm about halfway through Blood Meridian. It's fascinating to read. Not at all what I was expecting and yet I love it. That's such a powerful quote. Thank you for sharing.