Thanks Ryan. I was really happy to write it and to get to share it at Inner Life and here. It's kind of the initial stages of me forming an idea about how these stories can help heal.
Like many women, I’ve had my fair share of negative experiences with “The Patriarchy” ... sexism, assault, gas lighting, power struggles, even an absentee father, who doubled down on the absenteeism by checking out permanently. And while (again, like many women) I’ll curse the old rich white men at the top for my lot in life because I AM the victim AND it’s easy to play the victim (both are true!), I also enjoyed a reckoning of my own that flipped the script: the George Floyd era when it turned out that liberal white women were worse than racists. I’m hyperbolizing here for brevity, but my point is that I discovered that just because I’m victimized [here], doesn’t mean I’m not a perpetrator [there]. But I also learned something else: where there’s blame, there’s shame. And shame is a temporary but highly dangerous weapon. “I need to do better, do the work!” was my initial reaction (which: yes, great!) But I quickly realized how counterproductive it was to apologize for and fix an entire demographic (and atone for generations of trauma no less). And it can also be a mind-fk to believe it’s time to step down/step back and let others do all the things instead of you (in the context of believing life is zero sum game). I once stumbled on a thread of guys who started out as card carrying liberals and proud allies who protested at antiracism rallies, but because their group found fault after fault with them (being white and male), these men eventually broke and found their tribe at a David Duke rally. Jeezus. And yet I believe it looking at the country today. No one is inoculated against the human virus of fragility when shame is the weapon of choice.
I digress but mention all this because I SEE you. I see it everywhere. In the opioid crisis, climbing suicide rates, unemployment, etc. And what YOU are championing here sounds like a step in the right direction... but with one caveat... It can be a slippery slope as any rally that points to our tender wounds can quickly raise that same finger towards the collective enemy who caused those wounds, effectively waging a new counter war (as you mentioned, movements can and often do quickly devolve). But at this point and the way we’re headed, nothing is going to improve unless each of us, in our own specific tribes, take a beat, get honest about those underlying emotions (mostly shame), love ourselves for our talents (as much as and even despite our warts) and support one another in the struggle. I look forward to following your journey and your stories (and I’m grateful to not be shut out even if I don’t match your chromosomes!)
E.L. It's taken me so long to write exactly what I wanted to say here. So many thoughts about what you shared here.
First off: your comments never fail to stop me in my tracks and make me think about what I have said. I grow more through your engagement than I recognize most days.
I work with a woman who runs a feminist focused non-profit. She's so thoughtful about how her organization can make a change. One thing I love is she says "we meet people where we are and we offer them a path forward." I've always felt that was so insightful. I'm not as far along as she is in recognizing how people have experienced inappropriate actions from men who were too insecure with themselves to not harm others. I recognize I have and benefit from privileges that many others don't. But too many times I've been told by activists that I need to "sit in my discomfort and see what it's like." That's never been a recipe for success or support, and I want to support others.
I also am deeply uncomfortable with any kind of -ism in general. Part of the world I want to imagine is one where everyone has the opportunity to define themselves as humans aspiring to live to their best, rather than being a label. It's what interested me in the mythopoetic movement -- when your tribe is less a tribe and more a path to enlightenment.
Your point about a counter war really humbles me. I reached out to a friend who is a former preacher and incredibly thoughtful leader to discuss how movements flourish and the pitfalls of tribal identity in history. He recommended I look at a specific history of Calvanism as a starting point and then we're going to discuss It's a question I'm fascinated by, not least because I've always been nervous about movements for the very reason that they often bring out the worst in us.
In case you don't already know this, you are never shut out, not least of all for your chromosomes. It's a pleasure sharing these stories and this journey with you.
I'm just lifted right up by your friend's mantra. It reminds me of another concept: people who hurt others are hurt themselves. Why make things all the worse by casting folks down or aside? Why punish those who are trying to make amends or at the very least show they're open to change? Why shut them out if their methods of change don't precisely align with our own? And there's enough discomfort already there, it's not all that constructive to force folks to wallow in it.
"When your tribe is less a tribe and more a path to enlightenment" THIS. When you are welcome and embraced simply because you want to craft an existence that improves upon the one you stepped into. And yes "isms" draw a very thick line around a set of ideals, which makes it hard to identify the importance of nuance of our behaviors. I'm much more prone to the "what if both are true" approach, even if ideas seem diametrically opposed and paradoxical. I'm intrigued by your friend's suggestion to look at Calvinism as a starting point! Through MUCH of history, religion has done a wild job of both the order AND disorder of society. I think if there's a "discomfort" to sit in – pondering nuanced and paradoxical ideas is the most constructive and offers the most wisdom! Basically, if we're feeling comfy-cozy in our set of beliefs, we're doing it wrong ;)
In any case, thank you so much for the conversation here, Latham! I'm such a fan and I'm grateful for the opportunity to see the world through someone else's eyes!
And now this is everywhere! This weekend my husband and I have been winding down with the IFC Portlandia marathon and the “What About Men?” Sketch was on... and then this interview was in this morning’s NYT newsletter: https://shorturl.at/ORVWY . I think feminist/fem-adjacent folks talking about this amongst themselves is a pretty damn good idea. Acknowledging that it’s complicated, messy, but a deserved discussion.
The mythopoetic men’s group movement is still very much alive. There are probably more orgs than ever and the largest one has been around since the 70’s. The biggest challenge today is our polarized world. It’s near impossible to make something to appeal to a groundswell of men.
It was likely never going to defeat dominant culture, it was a counter cultural movement. It’s initial moment of prominence in culture was that pop that journalists give new ideas “Can you believe what men are doing in the woods?”
It’s hard to measure it’s impact on culture, but we’ve certainly seen a shift in the energetic qualities that celebrity men and hero figures are allowed to have. Not everything, but not nothing.
Thanks for commenting. I didn't realize the movement was still going strong. When I was researching this piece, most of the people and articles I found talked about it losing steam in the 90s and the people I talked to who are exploring this kind of work now disparate and decentralized in their approach.
What are the best resources to learn more? I'd be interested in updating my own understanding and maybe trying to write more about it. See if we can't energize some of the groundswell that I see in my own experience. I know a lot of men that are interested in new narratives and desperate for something different, but either haven't found where to look or have been turned off by what they've tried. But I do think there's a really good story to be made that this is important work more people should know about.
If it's easier, you can send me an email instead of chatting in the comments. Lhturner06@gmail.com
“Stories – vulnerable honest stories of what it means to live – have to play a part. You come here for these stories, because they inspire us to demand more. Because they help us build models of how we’ll find deeper meaning. Because they let us see how others are becoming whole: integrating work, family, spirituality, and responsibility with the courage to step into the unknown.”
This was such a great read. It's heartening to hear your take and I'm really looking forward to what comes next.
Thanks Ryan. I was really happy to write it and to get to share it at Inner Life and here. It's kind of the initial stages of me forming an idea about how these stories can help heal.
Like many women, I’ve had my fair share of negative experiences with “The Patriarchy” ... sexism, assault, gas lighting, power struggles, even an absentee father, who doubled down on the absenteeism by checking out permanently. And while (again, like many women) I’ll curse the old rich white men at the top for my lot in life because I AM the victim AND it’s easy to play the victim (both are true!), I also enjoyed a reckoning of my own that flipped the script: the George Floyd era when it turned out that liberal white women were worse than racists. I’m hyperbolizing here for brevity, but my point is that I discovered that just because I’m victimized [here], doesn’t mean I’m not a perpetrator [there]. But I also learned something else: where there’s blame, there’s shame. And shame is a temporary but highly dangerous weapon. “I need to do better, do the work!” was my initial reaction (which: yes, great!) But I quickly realized how counterproductive it was to apologize for and fix an entire demographic (and atone for generations of trauma no less). And it can also be a mind-fk to believe it’s time to step down/step back and let others do all the things instead of you (in the context of believing life is zero sum game). I once stumbled on a thread of guys who started out as card carrying liberals and proud allies who protested at antiracism rallies, but because their group found fault after fault with them (being white and male), these men eventually broke and found their tribe at a David Duke rally. Jeezus. And yet I believe it looking at the country today. No one is inoculated against the human virus of fragility when shame is the weapon of choice.
I digress but mention all this because I SEE you. I see it everywhere. In the opioid crisis, climbing suicide rates, unemployment, etc. And what YOU are championing here sounds like a step in the right direction... but with one caveat... It can be a slippery slope as any rally that points to our tender wounds can quickly raise that same finger towards the collective enemy who caused those wounds, effectively waging a new counter war (as you mentioned, movements can and often do quickly devolve). But at this point and the way we’re headed, nothing is going to improve unless each of us, in our own specific tribes, take a beat, get honest about those underlying emotions (mostly shame), love ourselves for our talents (as much as and even despite our warts) and support one another in the struggle. I look forward to following your journey and your stories (and I’m grateful to not be shut out even if I don’t match your chromosomes!)
E.L. It's taken me so long to write exactly what I wanted to say here. So many thoughts about what you shared here.
First off: your comments never fail to stop me in my tracks and make me think about what I have said. I grow more through your engagement than I recognize most days.
I work with a woman who runs a feminist focused non-profit. She's so thoughtful about how her organization can make a change. One thing I love is she says "we meet people where we are and we offer them a path forward." I've always felt that was so insightful. I'm not as far along as she is in recognizing how people have experienced inappropriate actions from men who were too insecure with themselves to not harm others. I recognize I have and benefit from privileges that many others don't. But too many times I've been told by activists that I need to "sit in my discomfort and see what it's like." That's never been a recipe for success or support, and I want to support others.
I also am deeply uncomfortable with any kind of -ism in general. Part of the world I want to imagine is one where everyone has the opportunity to define themselves as humans aspiring to live to their best, rather than being a label. It's what interested me in the mythopoetic movement -- when your tribe is less a tribe and more a path to enlightenment.
Your point about a counter war really humbles me. I reached out to a friend who is a former preacher and incredibly thoughtful leader to discuss how movements flourish and the pitfalls of tribal identity in history. He recommended I look at a specific history of Calvanism as a starting point and then we're going to discuss It's a question I'm fascinated by, not least because I've always been nervous about movements for the very reason that they often bring out the worst in us.
In case you don't already know this, you are never shut out, not least of all for your chromosomes. It's a pleasure sharing these stories and this journey with you.
I'm just lifted right up by your friend's mantra. It reminds me of another concept: people who hurt others are hurt themselves. Why make things all the worse by casting folks down or aside? Why punish those who are trying to make amends or at the very least show they're open to change? Why shut them out if their methods of change don't precisely align with our own? And there's enough discomfort already there, it's not all that constructive to force folks to wallow in it.
"When your tribe is less a tribe and more a path to enlightenment" THIS. When you are welcome and embraced simply because you want to craft an existence that improves upon the one you stepped into. And yes "isms" draw a very thick line around a set of ideals, which makes it hard to identify the importance of nuance of our behaviors. I'm much more prone to the "what if both are true" approach, even if ideas seem diametrically opposed and paradoxical. I'm intrigued by your friend's suggestion to look at Calvinism as a starting point! Through MUCH of history, religion has done a wild job of both the order AND disorder of society. I think if there's a "discomfort" to sit in – pondering nuanced and paradoxical ideas is the most constructive and offers the most wisdom! Basically, if we're feeling comfy-cozy in our set of beliefs, we're doing it wrong ;)
In any case, thank you so much for the conversation here, Latham! I'm such a fan and I'm grateful for the opportunity to see the world through someone else's eyes!
And now this is everywhere! This weekend my husband and I have been winding down with the IFC Portlandia marathon and the “What About Men?” Sketch was on... and then this interview was in this morning’s NYT newsletter: https://shorturl.at/ORVWY . I think feminist/fem-adjacent folks talking about this amongst themselves is a pretty damn good idea. Acknowledging that it’s complicated, messy, but a deserved discussion.
this is so cool to see. Thank you for sharing this today.
It's so complicated and messy. But we'll never learn together if we don't discuss with each other.
The mythopoetic men’s group movement is still very much alive. There are probably more orgs than ever and the largest one has been around since the 70’s. The biggest challenge today is our polarized world. It’s near impossible to make something to appeal to a groundswell of men.
It was likely never going to defeat dominant culture, it was a counter cultural movement. It’s initial moment of prominence in culture was that pop that journalists give new ideas “Can you believe what men are doing in the woods?”
It’s hard to measure it’s impact on culture, but we’ve certainly seen a shift in the energetic qualities that celebrity men and hero figures are allowed to have. Not everything, but not nothing.
Thanks for commenting. I didn't realize the movement was still going strong. When I was researching this piece, most of the people and articles I found talked about it losing steam in the 90s and the people I talked to who are exploring this kind of work now disparate and decentralized in their approach.
What are the best resources to learn more? I'd be interested in updating my own understanding and maybe trying to write more about it. See if we can't energize some of the groundswell that I see in my own experience. I know a lot of men that are interested in new narratives and desperate for something different, but either haven't found where to look or have been turned off by what they've tried. But I do think there's a really good story to be made that this is important work more people should know about.
If it's easier, you can send me an email instead of chatting in the comments. Lhturner06@gmail.com
RESONATES!
“Stories – vulnerable honest stories of what it means to live – have to play a part. You come here for these stories, because they inspire us to demand more. Because they help us build models of how we’ll find deeper meaning. Because they let us see how others are becoming whole: integrating work, family, spirituality, and responsibility with the courage to step into the unknown.”
Thanks Dan. I'm stoked it resonates.